This topic is often debated. I'll give you my take on it. As I mentioned before, a lot of things start to look different from an unschooling perspective. I have learned that there is no need for an "us" vs "them" attitude - we can work together as a family. I have seen that they learn much better by experience and observation than by just being told what to do (whether math, bedtime, or keeping house). It's much harder to learn and make connections when you're following someone else's agenda / curriculum!

So I stopped trying to coerce them into helping me keep the house relatively tidy and clean. And I have been very happily surprised! The whole house just seems happier ... more joyful! I don't mind doing the cleaning I do, and they definitely help more around the house than they did before.

I participated in a discussion on an email on this topic recently (April 2004). I think we hit most of the main points of the topic so it might give you an idea about what it could look like in practice. To begin with someone was asking about tidying up large messes:

<< This is really an unchoring question. I am wondering when there are large messes (emptied closets, dismantled beds, giant forts, craft supplies everywhere, the entire Brio set on the kitchen floor) is it always the case that you get the kids involved in the clean up? Or do most of you just say it needs to be cleaned up now, invite help, but don't force any involvement? People talk about making it fun in order for kids to get into it, but this doesn't always feel natural. >>

I think it's the large messes that the kids find most overwhelming and shy away from. When I think they're done I'll ask them: "Are you guys finished with that stuff in the basement? I'd like to tidy it up, it's starting to bother me." If they say no, I'll ask them to let me know when they're finished with it. If it's in the way I'll ask them to please finish playing soon because it's in the way. ;-) I will ask if they can help, but I don't force them. Or if they're in the room I'll just start cleaning up while were chatting and they may just start too. If it's a big mess I often ask if they'll keep me company while I tidy up, but I don't force that either. My kids are older now (6, 9, 12) so the giant construction messes are no longer a constant feature.

When they were younger I tried for a while to make tidying up fun for them, but you're right, it didn't feel natural, and it was a lot of effort! I was pretty miserable about the whole housework deal - I'd keep insisting they help me (husband included), they'd put it off, I'd get frustrated, then I'd be grumpy the whole time, feeling all martyrly and grumbling "oh, when are they going to appreciate me!" It was a power struggle. But who would want to help doing something that makes a person miserable?!

Then a couple years ago it dawned on me that this was my problem, not theirs. I was the one who wanted the house relatively tidy and clean, not the kids. They were too busy to notice. And the stuff they were busy with was very important to them, and consequently to me because they were busy learning stuff they were interested in. Another realization was that it was my choice to tidy up: I didn't "have to" do it, if I really hated it I could hire someone to do it, or keep it at a higher level of messy. I was doing it because I chose to do it ... that was really freeing. It wasn't something I had to do that was out of my control, it was something I chose to do and I could do it my way.

So nowadays, if a mess gets to a point it bothers me, I clean it up. If my husband mentions some mess I say "Well, if it bothers you, clean it up. Or I'll get to it when it bothers me." And I try not to let the mess get to a point where it is overwhelming to me so I have a pretty loose routine where I try to do a bit every day. I also don't call them chores any more, I call them by what they really are - tidying up the room, cleaning off the table, cleaning the bathroom, vacuuming etc. And I do them so they are fun for me - have the TV on, listen to a book on tape, look out the window while I wash dishes etc.

Now the kids are not being forced to help maintain the house and they see that I am doing it when I think it needs doing and I enjoy doing it - don't get me wrong, there may be other things that I'd prefer to do, but this is what I've chosen to do, so I'm not at all grumpy about it, and I make it enjoyable for me. When I'm done I'll express my satisfaction. They are seeing the value in the work, not in the act of "doing chores", which hasn't much value/purpose in and of itself. And the look of happiness on their face when they come downstairs and everything's back in it's place - a clean canvas - is wonderful. They spend time running around and enjoying the space. I think it helps them realize the value of tidiness itself, not just because I said it was time to clean up. And they are starting to appreciate the time it takes (I don't try to do it all at night or in the morning while they're sleeping so it appears done "like magic") and the result of the effort (things in their place, clean sink, no dust bunnies etc.). It really is a much more pleasant and enjoyable environment all around.

And now when I ask them for help, they know I am not trying to coerce them, just genuinely asking for help. They take a moment to think about whether they have a few minutes to help, and they often do. And if they don't I'm not upset because I know they considered their response and they truly have something more important to do. I don't think they need to be "trained" for years to tidy up, or clean a toilet, or do laundry. They can learn those things in a few minutes when it becomes important to them. For me it's not worth the wear and tear on our relationship to get them to submit to my idea of clean. And when they have their own house, the day-to-day maintenance/tidy stuff will rise in importance, just as it did for me.

Also, their rooms are their own and it's their space to figure out what level of tidiness they enjoy/need. My daughter is 9 and up until a few months ago she loved having everything out. Her shelves were crammed with every knick knack she owned. If it got overwhelming she asked me to help her tidy it up, which I enjoyed - we spent some fun quiet time together. Once in a while she'd ask me to do it while she did something else and I enjoyed that too - putting the room back the way she liked it - it was like giving her a gift, and she really appreciated it. Then she decided she didn't like the clutter and did a big reorganization, packing a lot of her stuff into boxes. Now she regularly puts on a movie or a book on CD and tidies up - because she likes it tidy, not because anyone told her to do it. And she offers to tidy up my younger son's room (he's 6) and he often takes her up on it ... he likes the feeling of a tidy room, though he sometimes has to ask her where his stuff is. My eldest is 12 and he doesn't make much mess any more. ;-)

<< What do you do when you are not in a good mood to clean up and the toys/mess are still bugging you? >>

Well, if I'm not in the mood to clean it up, I don't. :) It helps me to remember it is my choice, not my curse.

If the mess is bugging me though I either choose not to look at it too often (I don't go in the room unless I need to), or assuming it's a kid-mess, I'll play with them in it! I can see all the fun they're having and have some myself, then it just doesn't seem so bad.

I know eventually I'll be in the mood to clean it up, and if it's bugging me it's on my radar. I'll tell the kids it's starting to get too messy in XXX room, and if they're done with it do they have a few minutes so we can tidy together? If nobody else is in the mood either, I'll start planning it. And I'll mention it to the kids (modeling my decision that it's too messy for me and my plan of attack). I'm a morning person, so maybe I'll plan to do it when I get up the next day. And I usually think about how I can make it more enjoyable ... put on a TV show or favourite movie in the background, or listen to music or a book on CD, or just quiet time to think. Or maybe I'll put on their favourite movie and they can hang out with me. And if something comes up that's more important I'll change my plans - it's my choice. One or more of the kids will usually be by while I'm tidying ... they may help a bit, chat a bit, remark on the progress. They'll see me working away, making the time pleasant for myself, and when it's done I'll feel a lot better and I'll share my satisfaction with them.

That's for larger messes. For typical daily clutter, I try to do quick run-through at night, my choice, because I know I'll feel good in the morning coming down to a relatively tidy kitchen, TV room etc. But sometimes I don't, and in the morning I remember what other choice I made instead (watching that movie together we rented, going out for a long family walk, hitting the couch with a good book etc). And I keep a bit of an eye out during the day. If someone's going up/downstairs I'll sometimes ask if they can take such-and-such with them ... they almost always say "sure".

I see my kids doing the same type of thing now. If their room gets too messy, they'll mention it. And they plan what they'll do about it ... even if that plan includes asking me - there's nothing wrong with asking for help, they hear me do it often enough! My 9yo daughter spent most of this afternoon cleaning out her closet. Just decided it was too cluttered for her ... well, I'll bet she decided it was too cluttered a while ago but I guess today was the day it fit in. I didn't even know she was doing it until she asked me for some boxes to pack stuff away. When she was done she asked me to carry them downstairs and that was that. I didn't thank her for tidying her closet (though I did remark how organized it was) - it's her closet, her stuff, her decision to do it.

<< Sorry, I just don't get it. >>

As someone mentioned earlier, take learning math for example. At school / school-at-home the process is to drill (...and drill) the basics - the "facts" - first, and then hope that as the kids get older they start to see the value of math, how it fits into real life and the big picture comes together. But the tenet of unschooling math is that if the kids encounter math in real life and see the value of it first, then the calculation & drill aspect of it is picked up quickly after and is easily understood. I don't force them to do math sheets, or play dominoes, or whatever, to learn math. And they are learning "math" just fine - we just don't separate it out from our life and label it.

It's just applying the same learning principle to learning about maintaining a healthy living environment (not how to keep the house clean to my level of satisfaction). Instead of starting with the act of chores and then hoping as they get older they will see the value and continue merrily along, I am modeling for the kids the activities I do to maintain a healthy living environment in our home. As they see the value in that they pick up the tasks on their own (or even just by emulating the parents' behaviour). Again, they may be performing the actual tasks at a later age than their "chored" counterparts, but they understand and feel the motivation behind the acts and pick up the details quickly. And my kids *are* learning what it takes to maintain a home just fine ... I don't separate it out any more than I do math; it's just part of living.

<< I can't see how kids can learn responsibility when someone else picks after them.>>

So you don't think they will ever see the value in maintaining a healthy living environment? I think that may be true if someone does all the house work on the sly, maybe always while the kids are sleeping, or away from the house and "out of their hair". The kids won't see what it takes to maintain the home, so of course they can't learn or appreciate what they don't see. The parents need to model the activities it takes to maintain the home environment. Just the same way we model the more "academic" stuff through unschooling (being curious, researching answers to questions, pursuing our interests etc).

<< I would feel really resentful cleaning them all up. Maybe, because I hate cleaning so much. >>

And maybe they'll pick up on that and feel resentful and hate cleaning too. Maybe they're cleaning up now because they know they have no other choice, and when they move out and do have a choice, they'll hate it and do it begrudgingly. Or not. :-)

<< When I came to get them, I just said, "Ok guys, time to pick up" and everyone pitched in. It was done in 5 minutes. >>

I do that too and sometimes everybody pitches in and it's done. But if someone clearly doesn't want to I don't force / coerce them into helping. Just as I don't force / coerce them to "do math".

<< What do you do about the kid's mess at other peoples' houses when you are visiting? >>

In the group of "friends with kids" that we would alternate visits with when the kids were younger and the messes larger, when I would start tidying up at their house they would tell me not to bother (and insist if I persisted), as I do at our house, even now when we have younger visitors that may pull out our toy "collections".

When I invite someone over it's for their company and for the kids to enjoy themselves. I don't want to see that enjoyment spoiled at the end of the visit by a tug-of-war between a parent and child(ren) over cleaning up our things. Besides, we'd probably have a heck of a time finding our stuff again over the next couple of weeks since they won't know where it belongs. :-)

When we get together at my Mom's it's usually with their cousins as well (that makes 5 kids), and we often stay for a day or two. The kids are so busy enjoying themselves, socializing and playing and doing stuff - in other words, learning! If a room (or kids) gets out of control one of us will try to initiate a quieter activity - a focused craft, a board game, a movie - and the other will go tidy up. I usually tell my mom to go play with them while I tidy because one of the points of the visit is to hang with Grammy!

At my Dad's it's another story again. He can't tolerate messes for any length of time. I will remind the kids of this and suggest they not take too much out at once (which they understand), and if I see the kids have moved on to another activity I will quietly tidy up. If they're in the same room I'll ask for their help, which I may get. If not, I just do it, maybe conversing with them at the same time, or guessing what they were doing by the block arrangements etc. Using the time to connect with them.

So really, it all depends on the "other people" and we adjust accordingly.

Now that their older (12, 9, 6) they usually bring stuff with them when we visit and eventually I'll let them know "we'll need to leave soon so could you please finish up what you're doing and gather your stuff?" And I'll get a range of honest answers that fit the situation, from "Okay" to "This is going to take me a while to finish up, can you gather my stuff?" to which I may reply, "I can look round and gather what I see but you'd better take a look because I'm not sure what you brought" (at which point they may direct me to what and where) or "I'm still doing XXX with YYY (the host). Let's both finish up and then we can look for your stuff together." Maybe even "I have to finish doing XXX with YYY host) and we have to leave in 15 mins to get home in time for ZZZ, so you'll need to do it yourself. If you miss anything we can always get it next time." It's just honest give and take to do our best to let everyone reach their goals (finish up what we're doing, gather all our stuff, leave in a reasonable amount of time).

Also, when they are playing and doing things I want them to be able to fully get into the moment, into "the zone" as it were, and not have a part of their mind worrying about how much mess they are making because they will eventually have to clean it up. I chose unschooling because I felt they would learn best that way, by experiencing life, so I want them to experience it fully. If they (maybe with their friends/cousins) find a new cookie recipe, or a goopy "science experiment", or want to get right into their imaginative play (hmm ... recently potions class comes to mind! LOL), I don't want them to avoid it because they don't think they'll feel like cleaning up the mess after. We'll figure that out if and when the mess arrives!
 

<< Our house is, in reality, a bit of a disaster zone most of the time. But I have my limits, and my kids *do* appreciate limits too. Not while they're in the midst of cutting 20 magazines to bits inside a blanket-and-furniture fort in the living room, but they know darn well that they would never have had the space to make the fort, and would never have been able to find the scissors and magazines, if the previous messes hadn't been cleaned up. Connecting the dots requires a little parental pointing-out from time to time, but the lessons are there, in the natural course of life. That's consistent with unschooling for me. >>

Exactly! We live together and are talking and making observations every day, connecting the dots about everything. They see and experience the natural consequences associated with tidiness - trying to find things, trying to find space, time it takes to organize things etc. Unschooling isn't hands off, neither is "unchoring", if you want to call it that. For example, if they decide they want to make a batch of cookies, I will point out stuff that may make the process easier, both in the baking and the cleaning up. And, depending on their age, I'd likely be involved and would be modeling and maybe suggesting little things along the way, pointing out the benefits. Just as natural conversation, not as demands.