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Instead of thinking of bedtime as a "rule", maybe start thinking about it as
a routine. Here's one such bedtime situation:
<<Two nights ago we told the girls they were going to stay up as late as
they wanted. They were like "ok".>>
This was likely very confusing for them, all of a sudden changing the game
about going to sleep. I think the unschooling idea of "no bedtimes" means
getting rid of the idea of an arbitrary time to go to bed just because of
what time it is on the clock.
It means helping them learn to listen to their bodies about when they are
tired and helping them decide what to do about it (quiet activity? nap?
bedtime?).
It means helping them figure out how they best like to get to sleep. Maybe
it is playing with them until they happily drop asleep and then carrying
them to bed. Maybe it is finding out an opportune time to suggest getting
ready for bed and launching into a comforting routine to help them settle
into sleep (and not forcing the issue). Maybe it's them coming to you saying
they are ready to start their routine. As the get older, maybe it's leaving
them to play quietly while you are sleeping and crawling into bed when they
are ready.
What "no bedtime" looks like in each unschooling house is going to be
different. It's even likely to look different for each kid.
<<I think bedtime works for us. It can range between 8-10pm but we need the
routine.>>
I wouldn't consider that an arbitrary bedtime, I would consider that a
routine for going to sleep. You notice somewhere between 8 and 10pm that
they seem to be getting tired, that the activity they are doing is coming to
a close, and that now is a good time to start getting ready for bed.
<<One of my daughters needs the routine. She was a mess without it. She was
even crying. >>
That's sad. Any child who loves routines will really enjoy a routine to help
them settle into sleep. It sounds likes she loves her bedtime routine,
irrespective of what time in the evening it starts. You know it's working
well for her because she settles in and goes to sleep. The routine will
change along with her as she grows ... be open to that. It sounds like your
other daughter enjoys the routine as well - the bath, the playing, the
stories, the time with her parents - she's just not be ready to go to sleep
at the end of it.
<<We got ready and got into bed with them. My younger daughter then proceeds
to tell me, she may not be ready. I said "Do you want to get up" "No, but I
don't want to sleep." I told her that she just stayed up until midnight and
came to me to go to sleep. It was like the conversation we normally have.>>
I wouldn't say to her that you're just doing what she asked. It's pointing
out your frustration with her that she can't figure out what she
wants/needs. She's not doing it on purpose to frustrate you; it's likely
just as frustrating for her. Instead take some time to try to help her
figure it out. Your suggestion of laying down and rubbing her head worked
well that night, you knew she was tired. Other nights if she doesn't take to
that one, try some others you think she might be amenable to ... bringing
some quiet toys to bed to play with, reading another story, or getting up to
play quietly or watch a movie. Try help her figure out what her
getting-to-sleep routine looks like.
As parents we often assume we know the best decision to make in a given
situation, especially when it comes to our kids. But the kids are not
learning how to make good decisions when you press them into "agreeing" to
your solution. And it keeps your eyes closed to the many other paths that
may be available:
I think the point is that when the parents have preconceived ideas about
what they see as a successful outcome to a situation and they press that
point, that isn't real freedom.
Using your example:
<<"Yes, it's hard for you to stop playing with legos now, but if you want to
wake up in time to see the balloons launch tomorrow morning, you need to get
to bed">>
What about "It's getting late, and remember we were planning to go see the
balloons launch tomorrow morning. You may want to go to bed soon so you're
not tired or grumpy when I wake you in the morning in time to go."
It lets you add your parental experience (consequences to staying up later)
to the child's thinking while not directing the outcome. And then let a
discussion follow. You may end up with a plan that looks like the child
continuing to play legos for a while longer, waking up excited when you call
him in the morning to go to the balloon launch, and having a nap in the
afternoon if he gets tired.
The point is with the above example the only successful outcome from the
parents point-of-view is that the child "needs to get to bed", when in fact
there are often a number of different ways to get from point A to B. If the
parent only sees one path from A to B and continues to talk with the child
until they convince them to take that path, that is not freedom. If the
parent talks with the child without leading the discussion (at least when
the parent feels they can add some experience / info to the discussion that
they think the child may not consider) and they work out a solution together
(including even dumping point B altogether - and this is often more possible
than you first think), it gives the child the freedom to make decisions. And
the freedom to learn to make better decisions as they gain experience.
I find that when I am truly open to all ideas, it is much easier to give my
kids the freedom to make these kinds of decisions because I am often amazed
at the workable solutions they come up with. Sometimes it takes a child to
help us think "out-of-the-box"!
Giving freedoms and then revoking them when the kids don't make the choices
you would like does not help them learn how to make good choices.
Unschooling is not about giving kids lots of freedom and leaving them to
find their way. It's about living by example, living with them every day and
taking the time to really be with them and talk with them, not at them. And
part of that is learning how to work things out with other people around
you:
<< ... her kids were being loud and rude and leaving messes. None of this is
treating other family members with respect. They had complete freedom to act
this way. They also had complete freedom to play quietly and either clean up
after themselves or not make such a mess in the first place. They used their
freedom and chose the activities that led Mom to believe that her children
were not ready for the freedom she allowed.>>
But giving the kids freedom (e.g. when to go to bed), leaving them alone in
their choices to do whatever, and then being upset about the choices they
made and revoking that freedom, is not unschooling. I'm not saying this is
what happened, it's just the direction the discussion has gone.
There is more than one path from point A (kids being loud & messy) to point
B (parents sleeping peacefully without waking to a large mess). Enforcing
bedtimes is just one possible path to point B. But it's an authoritarian
path that gives the kids the impression that they only have these freedoms
if their choices match mine (my preconceived notions about which path they
should choose). And this attitude is not very conducive to unschooling, as
the kids may conclude that the parent may take away other freedoms, such as
not doing "schoolwork" etc, at any arbitrary time that the parent decides
they are not making the "right choices".
Instead, the parent could discuss the issue with the kids. The kids need to
know how their choices are affecting others; they may not realize it on
their own. For example explaining "the noise you make after I go to bed is
waking me up during the night. I'm not getting a good night's sleep so I
feel tired and cranky in the morning." And then brainstorming some solutions
on how they can keep the noise level down. Or get some food without making a
huge mess. You get the idea.
And the discussions are definitely geared to the child's age. With younger
kids, maybe you can offer up more interesting choices, like lets go up to
your room and read a favourite story, watch a favourite movie etc. And as
they get older, maybe "light time" as someone suggested, time in their room
to pursue quiet activities of their choice is an acceptable solution to get
to point B for everyone involved. And as they get older still, maybe just
friendly reminders to keep it down, turn off the lights etc. before you go
up to bed. These are just other paths that can get you to point B, not
guaranteed solutions for everyone. The point is that the parents need to
talk with their kids to work out solutions that are amenable to everyone
involved. This way the kids learn how to make good decisions and choices -
choosing the best path for them from point A to B while considering how
their choices affect others involved.
As an aside, for example, when I realized my son wanted tea in the evenings
after I went to bed, I first put out on the counter all the stuff he'd need,
filled the kettle, and wrote basic instructions (including toss the tea bag
in the sink). I did that for a few nights, then the instructions fell by the
wayside and I just left the stuff out. After a couple weeks, he can take
care of it all himself. And though I mention any larger mess I find in the
morning (like "when you make such and such, can you please put this and that
in the garbage" etc.), give reminders to "please turn out all the lights
before you go to bed", and occasionally get up to ask them to "please
turn/keep it down, it's too loud for me to sleep", I do enjoy coming down in
the morning and figuring out what they've done and eaten ... it keeps me in
touch!
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